AKA Wardogs

IL-2 Battle of Stalingrad => IL-2 Battle of Stalingrad => Topic started by: AKA_Greywolf on February 16, 2019, 10:36:19 am

Title: Need to make changes to our Squad only BoS campaign
Post by: AKA_Greywolf on February 16, 2019, 10:36:19 am
We need to S@#t or get off the pot in making a squad decision on what we are going to do in regards to our AKA Squad only dynamic campaign.

Speaking for myself only, I am done with flying the Russian birds. Next Friday I will be up in Coconuts if we are still flying this current campaign.
Title: Re: Need to make changes to our Squad only BoS campaign
Post by: AKA_Goshawk on February 16, 2019, 02:38:25 pm
Just what do you mean with:
"S@#t or get off the pot in making a squad decision on what we are going to do in regards to our AKA Squad only dynamic campaign"

We all agreed to fly a specific number of missions on each side in the current campaign.
If we do the squad campaign like we've been doing, you're likely going to fly one half only anyway, so please be specific so I/we can address your concern accurately. We'll be missing you on Fridays until we start the new campaign. It was enjoyable flying with you while it lasted, but we knew you were unhappy having to fly both sides.
"What do you mean by the S@#t or get off the pot?"
Thanks, Grey.

Gos
Title: Re: Need to make changes to our Squad only BoS campaign
Post by: AKA_Greywolf on February 16, 2019, 04:50:21 pm
Gos,

Really you never heard of that expression?
I thought that with both of us being retired public safety people with conservative views living in liberal cities, we would have some shared expressions. Maybe that expression is only a Chicago thing.

Well we have discussed the attendence and gameplay issues regarding BOTH the BoS campaign and the 1946 campaign with Taipan previously. For the last two week's now we have heard that we may have some sort of meeting to try to mitigate the issues. Alas, thats as far as we have gotten.

So, hopefully this will help explain the meaning of my prior post.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ic9WR7UrqtQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ic9WR7UrqtQ) 

Title: Re: Need to make changes to our Squad only BoS campaign
Post by: AKA_Taipan on February 16, 2019, 07:41:15 pm
Salute Gents,
I have returned from my travels.
To clarify, I stated we would fly the campaign in its entirety, then meet to discuss any changes we would like.
Regardless of any changes, all pilots will fly both sides of the campaign.
I hope that clears up any confusion.

Cheers

Tai
Title: Re: Need to make changes to our Squad only BoS campaign
Post by: AKA_MoGas on February 16, 2019, 09:03:39 pm
Well grey...looks like you're stuck sitting on the pot. Hope you got a good magazine. May I suggest the May 1995 issue of JUGS?
Title: Re: Need to make changes to our Squad only BoS campaign
Post by: AKA_Goshawk on February 17, 2019, 09:00:48 am
Gos,

Really you never heard of that expression?
I thought that with both of us being retired public safety people with conservative views living in liberal cities, we would have some shared expressions. Maybe that expression is only a Chicago thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ic9WR7UrqtQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ic9WR7UrqtQ)

Grey,

I well know what the saying intends to mean, it's just that you quite prematurely used it.
We are doing precisely what we said we would do: you just want it to end before the time is up. You stated last mission that it would be your last. That's your call.
The rest of us (or those who elect to not follow your call) will finish the missions (if there are any left) then hold a meeting to discuss, as we initially agreed to do. At the meeting, you can bring up your desire to fly only on the side with the best planes and advantage. Until then,,,
So, to insure to you that I understand what your saying means, the rest of us are still shitting, so kindly keep the door closed until you hear the flush!
Thank you very much!
 :)

Gos
Title: Re: Need to make changes to our Squad only BoS campaign
Post by: AKA_Clutter on February 17, 2019, 10:30:32 am
I am "Johnny come lately" to the party, and as such, am not in a  position to say much. 
1) I understand the "flying both sides" and what it is meant to do.  And I think it is a lofty goal.
2) To make it work IMHO the plane set needs to be balanced, i.e., each side gets the same number of planes that are the best available for that side AND can maintain a balanced completive environment.
3) if an imbalance is noted then things should be adjusted.

4) if an imbalanced is caused by player participation( gross, not onesie twosie), is there a way to try and balance this.
5) I have no doubt that Scorp, Rel and who every else decided on the pane set worked hard to get a balanced set.

IMHO, the best solution would be to have EVERY one ditches BOx/1946 and come fly DCS. :-*

Seriously, my thoughts are just that, my thoughts.  I wasn't around when the plane sets were made. and I don't fly much in Box and NONE in 1946.

(and yes, I willtake a cheap kill anytime Hang wants to give me one. :-) )

Title: Re: Need to make changes to our Squad only BoS campaign
Post by: AKA_Big10 on February 17, 2019, 10:42:54 am
 ::) ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: Need to make changes to our Squad only BoS campaign
Post by: AKA_Goshawk on February 17, 2019, 01:40:07 pm
To Clutter:

"4) if an imbalanced is caused by player participation( gross, not onesie twosie), is there a way to try and balance this."

This is a great question. Once the campaign is decided on we try to determine who is willing to fly the "whole" campaign
and base the sides on those pilots. We realize there will be some who are not there consistently, and try to account for those as well.
The sides are determined as closely as possible, which was done in this campaign. After seeing how disappointing it was to have to fly the allied planes against the German it was determined early on that we would only fly 10 missions per phase. We assumed that the participants could stick it out for AT LEAST that many missions.

To Clutter and the rest:
What we were unable to ascertain is that there are some pilots who decide to prematurely stop flying, for whatever reason, which is not the fault of the side that stuck it out and retained their pilots. Perhaps a form of bribery (or justifiable guilt) can be applied by the pilots on the leaking side to beseech them to not abandon ship and leave the rest high and dry. It would not be proper for one side to arbitrarily reassign some of their side to help offset those who (trying to be REALLY tactful here) uhhh, left. Who would be the ones to get reassigned??? Especially since the more-populated side already suffered through flying the side that was not heavily advantaged in the plane-sets.

We were trying to create a campaign that would benefit everyone in the squad who flies BOS. We knew there would be a problem with difficulty settings and plane-sets for some of the guys, but we assumed those participating would try to stick it out (this would be the shitting part) in order to help make a final determination on what avenue to pursue afterwards (hence: getting off the pot).

Gos
 
Title: Re: Need to make changes to our Squad only BoS campaign
Post by: AKA_Clutter on February 17, 2019, 02:26:14 pm
... through flying the side that was not heavily advantaged in the plane-sets.

I think that is one of the problems.  And yes one side suffered thorough that, and I can see why "fair" would demand the other side do the same.  I guess the elephant in the room is , when was this recognized and could it have been mitigated prior to the end of the first set.

...
We were trying to create a campaign that would benefit everyone in the squad who flies BOS. ....(this would be the shitting part) in order to help make a final determination on what avenue to pursue afterwards (hence: getting off the pot).

Gos

??  OK so this was a TEST?  If so do you have enough data or does it need to go to the bitter end.

And I will say again, I am a late comer, so may not have much right to much of a voice.

o7 to all.
Title: Re: Need to make changes to our Squad only BoS campaign
Post by: AKA_Rage on February 17, 2019, 04:06:02 pm
There needs to be a lot of changes! Why wait till the end? Stop it and fix it and restart. These penalties are stupid, wrecking , and hitting ur own plane? I was banned for an hour! I was shooting at Bucky in the top gunners position  and he killed me as I was shooting at him and was banned for shooting a friendly? This has been a PITA from the beginning!
Title: Re: Need to make changes to our Squad only BoS campaign
Post by: AKA_Goshawk on February 17, 2019, 04:19:31 pm
Rage: getting banned is a REAL PITA!!! We're pretty sure it's because you were someone's tail gunner and took it upon yourself to shoot off your own tail. If it (the ban for damaging your own plane) is fixed at this time (mid phase), it would enable you to shoot off Greywolf's tail as often as you choose, which would be nice for the Axis side. However, we have pretty much stood by the policy of making no changes mid campaign or mid-phase. I suggest you don't fly as a tail-gunner.
Clutter: it was discovered early into the first phase, like the first mission that there was a distinct advantage to the Axis planeset, but we left it alone knowing we'd be swapping sides after the first 10 missions. We suffered through and to my recollection, we did not lose pilots due to the planeset disadvantage. When we were low on people, we tried to fly anyway.

Hope this helps.

Gos
Title: Re: Need to make changes to our Squad only BoS campaign
Post by: AKA_Clutter on February 17, 2019, 05:59:55 pm
...Clutter: it was discovered early into the first phase, like the first mission that there was a distinct advantage to the Axis planeset, but we left it alone knowing ….

If it was know that early, then it is more difficult for me to understand why it wasn't fixed.

I would to submit that in the future if such a thing occurs, then it is fixed on the following mission.  When sides switch they fly the same number of missions with the imbalance, but then after that fly the fixed was implemented.  Ofcourse I am sure there are dozen of conversations that I don't know about.
o7

P.S. And with that said, I will try to keep my fingers shut.  :-)
Title: Re: Need to make changes to our Squad only BoS campaign
Post by: AKA_Relent on February 17, 2019, 06:49:57 pm
I'll try to keep it short...

Rage - that was the first time the ban happened.. I didn't know the campaign was configured that way (it's based on Coconut's framework, probably a default setting) and Scorp probably didn't either.  I contacted him and he's eased up that setting a little using the campaign configuration settings (e.g. shorter ban, and it takes more "deliberate" friendly fire to trigger it I think).  I'd still be careful if jumping into the gunner position :).

Regarding the campaign - remember, it's based on Coconuts frame work, so much of how it is configured is from his campaign set up.  Scorp has spent a great deal of time learning how to implement the framework.  He did add some aircraft to the original Coconut campaign, like the P39, P40 and A20 to the red side, but it's not necessarily easy to add aircraft - takes trial and error, we don't want to break the campaign by adding stuff willy nilly.  We all need to have patience - Scorp's doing all of the work on his own time (and he's retired and travels a lot), so lets give it time to evolve.

When the current German fliers were on the Russian side, yes we complained (about the aircraft performance miss-matches, and the slaughter :) ) too, amongst ourselves, and we just gutted it out, adjusting tactics and savoring the time when we could get some payback. :).  Sorry some of you are choosing to not fly the BoX campaign, but as we have typically done (as Tai and Gos mentioned), we usually don't make changes during the campaign - we finish it out on both sides/phases, then make adjustments (and see above about having patience :) ).  Flying German I now appreciate the kills I made while flying Russian, it's quite a task given the plane set...  so it was fun in it's own right (the extra challenge).

Title: Re: Need to make changes to our Squad only BoS campaign
Post by: AKA_Big10 on February 17, 2019, 09:13:19 pm
I wish I had a screen shot from when we were blue and not a red on towards the end of the campaign. Some of you guys have memory problems.

One evening after about and hour half of flying all red left and blue had nothing but AI to shoot at.

Different plansets need to be implemented before I fly BOX again. We shall see what the American planes bring to the table.


Title: Re: Need to make changes to our Squad only BoS campaign
Post by: AKA_Relent on February 17, 2019, 10:11:21 pm
Lol.. my memory’s fine 10 - that was one mission, one I couldn’t attend - you’re generalizing based on one mission?  I think it was the last mission we had for the first half.  Other than that, the core team on red showed up every mission - look at the stats.  We haven’t seen you two for most of this half - we wanted to give you some well deserved payback guys!  :P

In any case, I’m sure we’ll get things more balanced...
Title: Re: Need to make changes to our Squad only BoS campaign
Post by: AKA_Big10 on February 18, 2019, 04:33:26 am
Stupid me, wtf was I thinking. I'm going back to shitting on the pot.
Title: Re: Need to make changes to our Squad only BoS campaign
Post by: AKA_Ramstein on February 18, 2019, 06:07:58 am
1)After diving into the mission editor, I want to say this is the hardest (nightmare to learn) one I have seen, and tried to use. (no tutor). Without great knowledge and experience with missions editing, at best it is hacking to get it to work.
2)Historically, the Germans would have wiped the Russians had there not been so many Russians. The German planes are better, no surprise to anyone. But, then skill helps too.
3)People (AKA pilots) agree on mission stuff, then the campaign starts, then people either show up, or not.
4)When I see a Russian plane (and I am German) I don't cheer and say I am going to wipe them off the map, I find any plane with a gun formidable. I try to hit and stay alive, even though I suck. You may not be your favorite plane, whatever side and plane, but I look at it as part of a group that depends on every pilot, or else there is no team. I often put in more effort than I need to, as I could very well lay down and watch tv, instead I take my meds, and fly to keep the team going so that everyone has a mission to fly.
5)Count yourself lucky to be able to fly, as when you have life problems, even something as simple as flying a plane at a desk with a joystick is a challenge for some of us. Take a look at the whole picture.

Suggestion, if you don't want to fly part of the mission, the whole mission, etc... fine, then don't. But just one hour from every missing person would solve a few issues.

I sincerely hope that everyone can fly like the old days... in that we had a large group of active pilots that flew together. It is better that way, IMHO.   ;)
Title: Re: Need to make changes to our Squad only BoS campaign
Post by: AKA_Scorp on February 18, 2019, 10:43:05 am
For me the plane set is a bit of a problem but the biggest problem are the icons.  The icons more than anything else give the advantage to the axis side.  The axis pilots are able to fly high and boom and zoom without ever having to worry about loosing sight of their prey.  Flying bombers is almost suicidal as you can be spotted from so far away and have no way to hide.

Something else that would help is to make bigger maps so that the side with the disadvantage would have more options as to where to operate.

No matter what happens with the plane set someone will complain but things like getting rid of the icons and making a bigger map would level the playing field regardless of the planes.

Title: Re: Need to make changes to our Squad only BoS campaign
Post by: AKA_Goshawk on February 18, 2019, 10:57:08 am
Nice points Ram and Scorp.
It goes without saying, there definitely is an advantage to the Axis side, especially with icons on. I think we should have our meeting after we are done with this wonderful second phase, attacking at will and spanking at our leisure. It has been fun.
Icons should be turned off (IMHO), as we heard from Hangten and others ad-nauseum. Those opposed to this, should find it easy enough if they fly with others who are more experienced at spotting planes in the sim.

SO, let's please try to understand that we are able to have our server ONLY because of the efforts being put forth by Scorp and Relent, who are the backbone of the AKA server for BOS. All this griping is unnecessary, since we all know what's been the problem all along, AND we all agreed to test a campaign to work out the bugs. So, let's get this phase finished, and if you're flying Allied, lay down and stretch out your necks willingly so us Axis can happily chop it off: OR, put Rage in your tail-gunner spot and let him do it for us. Either way, it's only a couple more missions and we're doing this to help Scorp help the rest of us.
Nuf said!
 
Gos
Title: Re: Need to make changes to our Squad only BoS campaign
Post by: AKA_MoGas on February 18, 2019, 03:47:10 pm
My opinion the old days of AKA are long gone. Remember when we all got together on one side and flew. Pepperidge farm remembers. Typically a COOP or the FS days. Now we just show up and bitch at one another.
Title: Re: Need to make changes to our Squad only BoS campaign
Post by: AKA_Wiley on February 18, 2019, 04:33:08 pm
 S! I have not participated in any BOX AKA campaign because of the use of Icons...  one thing to consider for leveling the playing field for the allies even tho it cant carry bombs in game but would not only be historically correct but also equal  the 109s of that early-mid war vintage would be to add Spit Vs to the allied lineup,another is why not limit the numbers the of 109F4s available You could use more 109F2s instead,make very limited numbers of 109F4 available as historically the Spit V and the 109F2 entered combat for the first time within weeks of each other early 1941,imo the 109F4 is far over modeled in game, if it was this good in reality it wouldn't have been surpassed by later models,109G series etc... also for balance sake as well as useful AC for both sides that are very close in performance include the Yak 1b, LA5 and 109G2,FW190A3, the Kuban map is quite large so that could spread things out a bit, BUT you have to lose the ICONS as they are a Sim killer.however these are just a few thoughts from a veteran AKAer from many years of membership who is one of a handfull who left flying 1946 years ago for newer sims and are now on the outside looking in so take these thoughts with a grain of salt...……
Title: Re: Need to make changes to our Squad only BoS campaign
Post by: AKA_Relent on February 18, 2019, 04:39:11 pm
Good points Ram, Scorp, and Wiley.  I know there's a way to limit the number of an aircraft type for a given airfield, from my limited time in the mission editor, and from seeing it applied in TAW, WoL, etc.  Maybe for the next BoX campaign setup, we see what the challenges are from Scorp in terms of tweaking the plane set and numbers per type, to see what's possible/doable.  Then maybe we can have more input from others on recommendations based on our experiences flying these aircraft, in terms of aircraft types/ratios/numbers/etc.
Title: Re: Need to make changes to our Squad only BoS campaign
Post by: AKA_Rage on February 19, 2019, 05:27:21 am
Rel, the point was the penalties! This has happened in our servers several times and brought the issue up then. I know this was a first for the killing a friendly issue but it needs to be fixed. I'm taking a time out. Rage.
Title: Re: Need to make changes to our Squad only BoS campaign
Post by: AKA_Scorp on February 19, 2019, 10:35:29 am
To the best of my knowledge the only BoX campaign that has been made available is Coconuts so unless someone wants to write a hell of a lot of code that is what we have to work with.  Coconut has written his code for his servers and how he wants a campaign to work, which is exactly what we did when we developed the 1946 campaign, so we are more or less stuck with what he produces.

Quote
My opinion the old days of AKA are long gone. Remember when we all got together on one side and flew. Pepperidge farm remembers. Typically a COOP or the FS days. Now we just show up and bitch at one another.

We did fly together as a squad but as Rel can attest to there was a lot of bitching than went on mostly about plane sets. 

If we want to fly as a squad my recommendation is TAW.  It's a tough campaign and if you fly Russian(which is where you have the biggest challenge) it is a tough slog through the first few maps.  TAW however can be rewarding if you fly as a squad and don't go off lone wolfing it.

Title: Re: Need to make changes to our Squad only BoS campaign
Post by: AKA_Relent on February 19, 2019, 06:59:40 pm
Rel, the point was the penalties! This has happened in our servers several times and brought the issue up then. I know this was a first for the killing a friendly issue but it needs to be fixed. I'm taking a time out. Rage.


Since the Expert and Normal servers are public facing (i.e. no password), I think it's expected that there be some sort of kick for too many friendly fire incidents.  I'm not sure what the current setting is TBH... I have yet to incur any penalty.

As you said, the incident with you the other day was the first I've seen with the Friday AKA campaign.  I think it was likely due to you're getting PK'd as you were shooting and it probably kept firing and chewing off Grey's tail :).   As mentioned, Scorp toned it down so hopefully it won't be a problem going forward, and if it does the penalty was greatly reduced as well.
Title: Re: Need to make changes to our Squad only BoS campaign
Post by: AKA_Clutter on February 19, 2019, 07:04:30 pm
To the best of my knowledge the only BoX campaign that has been made available is Coconuts so unless someone wants to write a hell of a lot of code that is what we have to work with.  C
I bitched about the imbalance in the pane set without knowing how to edit to make things better.  In DCS for the most part, it is easy to change plane sets, add or subtract.  Here I have no clue.  I do know that you and Rel have put a lot of work into it and do your best.  That doesn't fix the issue, but it may mean it isn't fixable. 


… ..and don't go off lone wolfing it.


"lone wolfing it"???  WHat the heck is that.  I would NEVER do that.  :-) :-)
Title: Re: Need to make changes to our Squad only BoS campaign
Post by: AKA_Goshawk on February 19, 2019, 07:12:18 pm
Well, we know better than THAT, Clutter!

We still recall your signature move, which we still refer to this day.

Gos
Title: Re: Need to make changes to our Squad only BoS campaign
Post by: AKA_Scorp on February 19, 2019, 09:00:21 pm
Quote
I bitched about the imbalance in the pane set without knowing how to edit to make things better.  In DCS for the most part, it is easy to change plane sets, add or subtract.  Here I have no clue.  I do know that you and Rel have put a lot of work into it and do your best.  That doesn't fix the issue, but it may mean it isn't fixable. 

In the past with Coconuts campaign it was not possible to have the Battle of Bodenplatte aircraft but I believe that has been changed.  We can put together just about any plane set we want and I believe we can make limit the number of premium AC available and we can set which AC are premium .

Is there a publicly available campaign structure for DCS?

Title: Re: Need to make changes to our Squad only BoS campaign
Post by: AKA_SilverDevil on February 20, 2019, 01:51:00 pm
i believe there are MP campaigns. i do know there are plenty of co-op missions. string like ones together and do some sort of record keeping of results would be achievable.
Title: Re: Need to make changes to our Squad only BoS campaign
Post by: AKA_Clutter on February 20, 2019, 06:49:13 pm

Is there a publicly available campaign structure for DCS?

That I am not sure of.  There are a couple of different online presentient campaigns (e.g., Blue Flag) but I don't know if they would allow you to use their campaign "engine" for your won purpose.  I know when you fly a DCS MP mission, you have ac copy of that on your machine.  However, I seriously doubt that you could take a Blue Flag mission and get the campaign engine.

There are a lot of tools to help create missions, and those might be able to be used to create a campaign, but I think that would be a formable task (for anyone except Rel.  :-) )