Author Topic: CloD 109 'flip move'  (Read 1633 times)

Offline Recon

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CloD 109 'flip move'
« on: November 16, 2013, 05:55:13 am »
So, when I posted about this 109 stall tactic as a bug on TF forum, where from 500 ft (or any alt), a 109 pilot can throw their plane into a stall and recover instantly... they said 'are you sure this isn't lag'   LOL!!!!

When I brought this up on our comms last night it was confirmed by others that they do this - anyone have a track ?

I find it interesting the Germans such as Keller act like they don't know anything about this...

Also, I brought up the helmets deadening the sound of the wind and that it felt like WW1 right now - it was unfortunately conveyed by Keller that this was done to help stop Allies from open canopy to hear 109's coming.  I'm extremely disappointed to hear this, as I've been saying it was done for realism to you guys... sigh.

I've put forth my complaints on both.  Any track or confirmation on the 109 'stall flip' move would be helpful.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2013, 10:31:05 am by AKA_Ramstein »

Offline AKA_Scorp

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Re: CloD 109 'flip move'
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2013, 09:39:58 am »
Quote
Stall modelling Changes

1) 109 Stall Characteristics adjusted. 109 Stall now more benign, instead of 'snapping and dropping a wing' at the point it enters stall, the aircraft 'mushes' into stall and unless pushed very hard, simply loses altitude without noticeable loss of aileron control, wing drop or spin. This more closely reflects historical tests. Aircraft does not turn better, simply when entering stall, flight effects are different.
2) Spitfire Stall Characteristics adjusted. Spitfire stall now displays more extreme 'Snap and wing drop' characteristics if pushed too far, especially in high speed stall situations, as per historical descriptions. Number of rotations required to exit spin adjusted to reflect historical tests. Again, turn capability not affected, players who 'ride' the edge of the stall will see the same turn performance.
3) Hurricane Stall Characteristics adjusted. Number of rotations required to exit spin adjusted to reflect historical testing.
4) 110 Stall Characteristics adjusted. At the stall, it now shows less of a tendency to drop a wing or enter a spin, as per historical testing. Turn capability is unchanged.

From this it sounds as if the 109 doesn't really 'stall' anymore, no wonder they can regain control so quickly as they never loose it!


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Offline AKA_Trapper

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Re: CloD 109 'flip move'
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2013, 10:17:01 am »
Shouldn't subjects like this be posted in the IL-2 Cliffs of Dover forum down below ?

Just sayin'

Offline AKA_Ramstein

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Re: CloD 109 'flip move'
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2013, 10:21:17 am »
I thought the elliptical wings are suppose to be superior in slow turn fights, but apparently, the Germans modelled clipped wings to outperform real life physics.. I usually don't speak up but, this is outrageous! I will try this tactic, to see for myself.. but then again I never flew either real life... and the plane I did fly I wasn't in any position to turn it upside down.. I would think there would be a riot on the banana forums if there was an 'authorized cheat' on the loose..

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Offline Recon

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Re: CloD 109 'flip move'
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2013, 06:26:36 pm »
25 seconds in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0wn79sKF5E

According to the TF guys, this is realistic.  According to the pilot who did it - he said he did a 'snap roll' (and thought this from outside looked like 'lag')

Offline Recon

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Re: CloD 109 'flip move'
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2013, 06:29:46 pm »
Here is the actual pilot video (cool eh)- maneuver occurs at 10:14

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40K6uXVZniQ

that looks legit 'snap roll' from 'inside' but from outside looks wierd

Offline Recon

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Re: CloD 109 'flip move'
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2013, 06:49:14 pm »
This will be investigated btw - so glad I brought it up - it's a legit move for the German pilot, but for some reason what we see isn't really correct

Interesting!

Offline AKA_MattE

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Re: CloD 109 'flip move'
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2013, 10:46:08 pm »
That is not a snap roll, the 109 clearly departs normal controlled flight which allows for a faster roll then regains controlled flight almost immediately.  The 109 should recover from a stall/spin fast and easier then the RAF aircraft because of the slats but it should not be instant. 

Good catch Recon!

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Offline Recon

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Re: CloD 109 'flip move'
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2013, 05:40:24 am »

Offline AKA_MattE

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Re: CloD 109 'flip move'
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2013, 09:18:24 am »
Good video Recon, that shows us what a real snap roll looks like, notice the nose of the Yak continues in the initial vertical direction with the exception of the right rudder input  (which takes it to 30 degrees or so) at the beginning to induce the snap (tip stall) part of the snap roll, then the yak continues to go up and continues its forward momentum.

The 109 on the other hand has way too much rudder input which puts it nose almost 90 degrees while the elevator input then pushes the nose down (while the plane continues to climb) at 27 seconds. I would think either of these would induce a complete departure and a violent spin, but then it gets better.. The 109 stops its roll at about 300 degrees (from initial position) and looks like it completely stalls dropping the wing another 45+ degrees beyond horizontal with the nose now pointing up and the plane starts to fall! This would certainly cause the plane to completely stall and it should spin because of the violence of the maneuvers.  Now when you think it can’t get any crazer the 109 almost instantaneously snaps rolls back the other direction to have the wings at almost horizontal (about -10
degrees) while falling…   I didn’t know the 109 had a better than 1 to 1 weight to trust ratio and vector thrust..

Either the 109 would not “snap” because there would be no tip stall and just carve thru the turn, or what really should happen in this clip is an uncontrollable stall then spin from too much runner and elevator input, causing the 109 to drop several hundred feet until recovery or impact with the water, OR there is lag and the system is just not keeping up with the actual maneuvers so what is perceived is not correct. 

The cockpit view will be hard to analyze because the pilot looks backwards and his gauges are all shot up but you can see where is roll stops it looks like the plane has stalled and then goes nose down before he looks back. It looks to coincide with the spit video with the exception it does not look as violent.

This behavior mimics what is written in the "read me" file for the 109's stall, but now it has been seen it is a  total mess and I hope TF corrects it. 

MattE
« Last Edit: November 18, 2013, 09:21:55 am by AKA_MattE »

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Offline AKA_Scorp

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Re: CloD 109 'flip move'
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2013, 10:31:11 am »
what I find funny is that the 109 pilot complains that he is not able to climb to the Spit after pulling that maneuver.  If you could recover from something like that you should be at just above stall speed.

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Offline AKA_MattE

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Re: CloD 109 'flip move'
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2013, 01:30:45 pm »
what I find funny is that the 109 pilot complains that he is not able to climb to the Spit after pulling that maneuver.  If you could recover from something like that you should be at just above stall speed.

Honestly I do wonder about some of these blue pilots. I want the 109 to be a real killer at stall speeds, those slats were there for a purpose, but what that video shows is more like what a SU 26 can do today at the hands of a expert aerobatics pilot, and even then the SU 26 would have stalled, spun and dropped.

If you showed that video to me out of context I would say it was server lag.

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Offline AKA_Knutsac

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Re: CloD 109 'flip move'
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2013, 07:46:06 am »
what I find funny is that the 109 pilot complains that he is not able to climb to the Spit after pulling that maneuver.  If you could recover from something like that you should be at just above stall speed.

And have a load in your pants.